Infinite MonkeysI feel it best to bring this discussion me and RobbL are having about Gitmo into the main thread — all the better to have more monkeys weigh in. Robb says:
" ... [the federal government has] decided not to extend fairly basic human rights (like habeas corpus, contact with lawyers, contact with families, etc.) to those accused but not convicted of - hell, not even CHARGED with - these crimes."
No access to lawyers? Then explain this story, in truthout.org of all places, that details how Gitmo detainees have had contact via mail with their crusading attorneys. An excerpt:
Navy Commander Jeffrey Gordon, a Pentagon spokesman, told the Associated Press the military has been giving broad lawyer access to many detainees - even though they are accused of having al-Qaeda or Taliban links and the United States is still at war.
You can argue many things, but saying those terrorist detainees don't have access to lawyers is not very strong. Not only is every case reviewed by a military commission, but at least three cases, Hamdi being the most prominent, have reached the U.S. Supreme Court. Here's an op-ed from The Wall Street Journal that goes into even more detail about the level of involvement America's legal community has had at Gitmo. Burlingame calls them "the Gitmo bar."
I said:
"Besides, they get pretty good treatment down at Gitmo — at least those who don't throw poo, urinate on and attack the guards."
And then RobbL said:
How do you know this? Because the US Government tells you so? And they've never lied to the public before, right? And what constitutes "good treatment" for someone who hasn't been charged with a crime?
To believe this, we'd have to believe that there is a wide-ranging conspiracy — stretching from the Pentagon all the way down to Gitmo guards, past and present, who are so disciplined as to never leak a peep that counters the extensive stories of prisoner attacks on guards, like this one from the Associated Press, via MSNBC.
The prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay during the war on terror have attacked their military guards hundreds of times, turning broken toilet parts, utensils, radios and even a bloody lizard tail into makeshift weapons, Pentagon reports say.Incident reports reviewed by The Associated Press indicate Military Police guards are routinely head-butted, spat upon and doused by “cocktails” of feces, urine, vomit and sperm collected in meal cups by the prisoners.
They’ve been repeatedly grabbed, punched or assaulted by prisoners who reach through the small “bean holes” used to deliver food and blankets through cell doors, the reports say. Serious assaults requiring medical attention, however, are rare, the reports indicate.
The detainee “reached under the face mask of an IRF (Initial Reaction Force) team member’s helmet and scratched his face, attempting to gouge his eyes,” states a May 27, 2005, report on an effort to remove a recalcitrant prisoner from his cell.
“The IRF team member received scratches to his face and eye socket area,” the report said.
And RobbL also wrote this:
I would rather they be charged with a war crime, designated prisoners of war and treated as such, or released. And whatever is done, it should be done stateside with both legislative and public oversight.
There is legislative oversight — and don't let the likes of Carl Levin and Jay Rockefeller tell you any differently. Congress knows very well what is going on down there, through classified briefings on the Hill and personal visits. And the amount of journalism chronicling the goings on down there is massive.
It is no gulag. And those who cooperate get very nice treatment, considering their status as violent, sworn enemies of the United States. Don't take my word for it, take it from that right-wing, pro-war bastion....Mother Jones.
Improved cooperation enables prisoners to move from maximum to medium security and on to a sort of honor society known as Camp 4. Good behavior alone can keep a prisoner out of maximum security, but moving to Camp 4 requires cooperating with interrogators. In Camp 4, prisoners eat together and are free to congregate and play soccer. A Mother Jones reporter was allowed to see these men but not talk to them. They wore white clothing instead of orange jumpsuits and, almost to a man, had cultivated the full beards common in their homelands.
That's enough for now. Back to you, Robb.
Posted by Dr. Zaius at June 24, 2007 08:58 AM